Curse

Tenebrae · Jul 09, 2009, 02:37 PM // 14:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by MrTickle

I think this all boils down to greed. Some people just want to QQ because their uber weapons are no longer worth what they once were. They want skills nerfed to shit to make their ecto worth more.

Others want to QQ because they can.

LoL So much hate for 1 person , someone with money screwed you hard or something. Rage posts with no sense ftl

Lest121 · Jul 09, 2009, 03:22 PM // 15:22

PvE needs new content otherwise it's fine, only a small minority of individuals see faults while the majority play and enjoy the game.

Minority=Build haters, QQing losers.

Majority=Real gamers.

Bryant Again · Jul 09, 2009, 03:25 PM // 15:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by HuntMaster Avatar

...

Bugger Christ that is a HUGE wall of text that just crit me for over 9mil. I'd rather kowtow and admit that PvE skills are awesome and that GW right now is flawless rather than fully reply to that mess.

Besides that most of it would be me repeating myself from what I've said with Daesu so you can probably spare us a bit of time by going over those posts and what I've said. But to reply in a sense to your post here's a few questions:

1. Would you rather have only a few things be overpowered allowing for a very limited selection of powerful builds, or a more balanced spectrum of skills allowing and very well encouraging more build diversity amongst the playerbase?

2. Why do you feel that your character should be more powerful for doing a mundane and repeatable task i.e. grinding?

3. Do you feel that regardless of the player's skill that he should be able to complete any and all content regardless of difficulty setting?

4. Would the majority "casual" player benefit more from learning more about his profession and all the build combinations - under the assumption that ANet nerfed and balanced the currently overpowered facets - or would he benefit more from 1 or 2 insanely powerful builds, which is GW's current situation?

5. If PvE skills and all the other silly stuff was nerfed and a bit more balance was introduced, what do you think players would do? Would they get up and QQ never to play the game again, or would they adapt and be encouraged to become a better player?

6. Can a strong and in-depth learning curve also bring forth a lot of playability?

To end things I'll just point up to Avarre's post up there.

Daesu · Jul 09, 2009, 03:40 PM // 15:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

How many successful games do you know that cater hugely to the impatient and inexperienced? Quite a few.
Now how many successful games do you know that don't? Quite a lot.

I would be more sympathetic towards ANet's decision if there wasn't an easy and apparent history showing how many games reward only the experienced players and that also require quite a lot of commitment and understanding. Guild Wars could've been one of those games.

That makes sense to me too.

Balancing PvE is very complicated. Partly also because of the need to reward time invested in the game. In some other games, the more you play, the higher level you achieve and the more powerful you get. You can be a really bad gamer, over aggro most of the time, and still level up (and rewarded with more power) because you persisted, not because of your skill level.

GW has only a max level of 20, but titles take on the role of artificially increasing the character level beyond that, by granting you more power the more you play this game, which is mutually exclusive from a gamer's skill level.

HuntMaster Avatar · Jul 09, 2009, 04:12 PM // 16:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

Bugger Christ that is a HUGE wall of text that just crit me for over 9mil. I'd rather kowtow and admit that PvE skills are awesome and that GW right now is flawless rather than fully reply to that mess.

I believe I kept it to a reasonable amount and structured it so its easily readable. But if its too much for you, I understand.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

Besides that most of it would be me repeating myself from what I've said with Daesu so you can probably spare us a bit of time by going over those posts and what I've said. But to reply in a sense to your post here's a few questions:

lol.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

1. Would you rather have only a few things be overpowered allowing for a very limited selection of powerful builds, or a more balanced spectrum of skills allowing and very well encouraging more build diversity amongst the playerbase?

I would rather have what works. We don't need hundreds of different builds, most of which wouldn't work as well as the few. Which is the case right now and has always been the case since this game came out. We've never had a completely balanced spectrum of skills and we probably never will.

Instead of having what works, we nerf what works and then take even more time to discover what works with the new updates. As I said before, we just end up right back where we started. With overpowered skills and people chosing to use whatever they want regardless of what works. (common pug problem)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

2. Why do you feel that your character should be more powerful for doing a mundane and repeatable task i.e. grinding?

Because after years of playing, I'd like to get what I want, faster. If a repeatable goal takes an hour when it could take less time, it will grow boring quick. But if we can do these things faster, it will keep it fun, longer and even when the "act" does get boring, it will still be fun because of the rewards if it can be done quickly. This is one reason diablo 2 LOD has been so successful for so long. Because it doesn't take you days to do what you want and its all repeatable, just like gw. More time doesn not equal better or more enjoyable. But it does get boring and people quit doing it.

Remember how often people played elite areas before speedclears became popular? Not many, simply because of the time required. Faster is motivating. Stronger builds mean more success which equals more playtime.

Most people don't even play in pugs, so build balance and diversity doesn't mean a whole lot since heroes require certain builds. So in the end, nothing really changes by nerfing successful builds or popular areas except less people do them which drives up the prices of items.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

3. Do you feel that regardless of the player's skill that he should be able to complete any and all content regardless of difficulty setting?

Yes, to a certain point. I believe that the game should be player friendly and that it should have a simple enough learning curve to be easily learned yet the higher tier's of play (HM) should require more work.

Harder = less successful builds in the situation which means less build diversity. So in the end we end up right back where we started. With a few successful builds which get over used and complained about.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

4. Would the majority "casual" player benefit from learning more about his profession and all the build combinations - under the assumption that ANet nerfed and balanced the currently overpowered facets - or would he benefit more from 1 or 2 insanely powerful builds, which is GW's current situation?

Well is it easier to learn something when the rules keep changing? Nope. People have been playing this game for years. I think they've learned and the newer players have trouble because there is no consistency with guildwars.

Did anet balance anything in the last update? I know they buffed rits and now we have super powerful rits running around and some people are already complaining about them. So would it benefit players to have a solid set of rules that don't change base on popular or unpopular opinion or would they benefit more from X becoming Y and then being changed to Z.

How can you learn how to use every build if it keeps changing all the time? You can't expect people to sink 4-8 hours of their time every single day in learning the skills of the game. People have lives. We log on to have fun and make some loot. Not to study up on the latest GW mechanic meta.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

5. If PvE skills and all the other silly stuff was nerfed and a bit more balance was introduced, what do you think players would do? Would they get up and QQ never to play the game again, or would they adapt and be encouraged to become a better player?

That depends on the changes themselves and how fun it is for the individual playing. I think people are looking for a reason to keep playing and a good portion are looking for a reason to hate the game and quit.

For some players, it makes no sense to take the time to learn the skills when they will just be changed again and again. Why get adjusted to their favorite builds when someone will cry foul and it gets nerfed? Anet knew what it was doing when they updated the assassin but that didn't matter when a small group of people lost tons of money on their items. So now anet will nerf the sin and buff something else and soon people will complain about that. As I'v said, its a never ending cycle with the illusion of balance yet no real long term fix.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

6. Can a strong and in-depth learning curve also bring forth a lot of playability?

Sure, prophecies proved that. But when you talk to people about prophecies now they don't like to play those areas and always say how wonderful it was when factions and nightfall gave us new skills. But if you have to spend 3-8 hours in a game 3-5 days a week, then its going to far. Thats the problem with other MMO games. Yet some people seem to want that for gw, which alienates a larger group of players, labeled casual.

Also how deep does the tactics have to be? I think people expect too much. Look at how many builds are on PvX, look at how many of those are used daily. Look at how many are added every update. A few overpowered builds have not ruined anything because people still play different things, but no one focuses on those people and only focuses on the people using the "overpowered" builds.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

To end things I'll just point up to Avarre's post up there.

He's got a good point in his post if it had not already been determined that people for the most part only have a problem with overpowered builds because they lost profit and now have to work harder to get what they want. Which is a contradiction. They want others to have to work harder so they don't have to. They want items to be harder to get so they are worth more. This applies to any farm but mostly focused on high end items like elite area drops and ecto's.

In otherwords, with all respect to Avarre's opinion, Its a cop-out. They don't care half as much about an idea being stupid or unneeded as they do about the profit they are losing. They just use a legit issue to mask their true problem, which is "I should be able to sell this for more than I currently can."

Now here's a question for all of you. If a game is about skill over time and only 500,000 players are "good" at the game and the other 4,500,000 players can't get anywhere at all without help (godmode) then what happens? You get a game played by 500,000 players and the rest move on to something more player friendly. Then what happens? The skill over time game loses money and no new content comes out.

So you have a game populated by a small group of superior players who end up fighting with each other and asking on forums how to bring people back to the game world, so they have more people to lord over/game with/fight against/sell their loot to.

Making a game harder does not make it better. Make a game better before you make it harder.

Targren · Jul 09, 2009, 04:34 PM // 16:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by HuntMaster Avatar

Now here's a question for all of you. If a game is about skill over time and only 500,000 players are "good" at the game and the other 4,500,000 players can't get anywhere at all without help (godmode) then what happens? You get a game played by 500,000 players and the rest move on to something more player friendly. Then what happens? The skill over time game loses money and no new content comes out.

So you have a game populated by a small group of superior players who end up fighting with each other and asking on forums how to bring people back to the game world, so they have more people to lord over/game with/fight against/sell their loot to.

(emphasis mine)
Very well said.

Microcosmically, this is already demonstrated by the PvP community wrt the GW community as a whole.

Yichi · Jul 09, 2009, 04:56 PM // 16:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by HuntMaster Avatar

This is one reason diablo 2 LOD has been so successful for so long. Because it doesn't take you days to do what you want and its all repeatable, just like gw.

A bit off topic, but you aparently haven't played D2 as much as you claim to have, because unless you are buying a bunch of duped crap off a website or trading things in forum gold, it takes an insane amount of time to get the better end gear and equipment in order to make a character viable in that game, let alone the endless baal/mf runs...

Lishy · Jul 09, 2009, 05:04 PM // 17:04

Very welll said, HuntMaster Avatar!

A lot of people's logic on the concept of "fun" and making a game "alive" is incredibly flawed. And they're the moaners who wonder why anet won't listen?

Personally, when I play guild wars, I wanna blow shit up. I don't care if something is unbalanced or not, I just want to blow things up.
What they really need is a quest where we get to fight an army of low level enemies. God, that will be fun!

HuntMaster Avatar · Jul 09, 2009, 05:24 PM // 17:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yichi

A bit off topic, but you aparently haven't played D2 as much as you claim to have, because unless you are buying a bunch of duped crap off a website or trading things in forum gold, it takes an insane amount of time to get the better end gear and equipment in order to make a character viable in that game, let alone the endless baal/mf runs...

I never said it was quick or easy to get a desired item. I said the act itself is quick and repeatable, Just like in gw. You can do high end areas with a permasin in gw but that doesn't mean you will get the drop you want. This is why we "grind". Same as d2.

I personally played d2lod for 6 years, I know all about mfing for drops, then selling those drops for pgems/low/mid runes and then trading all that for the single high end item/rune. Then doing it all again so you can mute the runes incase they are dupes so they get a new id code and won't poof.

Bryant Again · Jul 09, 2009, 06:06 PM // 18:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by HuntMaster Avatar

I believe I kept it to a reasonable amount and structured it so its easily readable...

More quotes = less readable = quote wars = turns into threads like this = no one giving a shit about the quote war

It's bad because they're huge, *huge* walls of texts. I could read yours just fine, but no one else is going to. That's why if we're gonna want to keep these humongous posts going on it should be kept in PM's to spare the other posters and the thread.

Quote:

Originally Posted by HuntMaster Avatar

I would rather have what works. We don't need hundreds of different builds, most of which wouldn't work as well as the few. Which is the case right now and has always been the case since this game came out. We've never had a completely balanced spectrum of skills and we probably never will.

Instead of having what works, we nerf what works and then take even more time to discover what works with the new updates. As I said before, we just end up right back where we started. With overpowered skills and people chosing to use whatever they want regardless of what works. (common pug problem)

You don't need diversity??? Well I suppose that's true, but why would you want things kept so linear?

Anyways, can't say I agree with that. Granted there is a shitton of skills for ANet to balance - which is why they would need more external sources (i.e. community help) to get a better grasp at things. It's a tough job for sure.

It's different when you have something that's slightly better than others as opposed to greatly better than others. The latter is where Guild Wars is now: your experience of an area will be much, *much* more easier with consets and Save Yourselves! going on in the group, not to mention the other 23 (!!!) PvE skills going amonst the group. The difference is almost staggering.

In regards to heroes: well obviously that's where you fix heroes (and Necroes too please, since that's what's making heroes so attractive at this point).

Quote:

Originally Posted by HuntMaster Avatar

Because after years of playing, I'd like to get what I want, faster.

Then you should become a better player. If you're good then you should be breezing through areas. You shouldn't need an artificial stat-boost assisting you.

Quote:

Originally Posted by HuntMaster Avatar

Yes, to a certain point. I believe that the game should be player friendly and that it should have a simple enough learning curve to be easily learned yet the higher tier's of play (HM) should require more work.

It's true that HM requires "more work", but that work involves getting the proper skills and copy/pasting from PvXwiki. That's not much work.

Harder only = much more less successful builds if the enemies are built towards it. When DoA came out people just tanked and spanked (another thing that needs fixing) their way through it. In general it's pretty rough to determine how things are going to turn out before the area is fine-tuned and made less stupid.

Quote:

Originally Posted by HuntMaster Avatar

Well is it easier to learn something when the rules keep changing? Nope. People have been playing this game for years. I think they've learned and the newer players have trouble because there is no consistency with guildwars.

Did anet balance anything in the last update? I know they buffed rits and now we have super powerful rits running around and some people are already complaining about them. So would it benefit players to have a solid set of rules that don't change base on popular or unpopular opinion or would they benefit more from X becoming Y and then being changed to Z.

How can you learn how to use every build if it keeps changing all the time? You can't expect people to sink 4-8 hours of their time every single day in learning the skills of the game. People have lives. We log on to have fun and make some loot. Not to study up on the latest GW mechanic meta.

You learn the basics: you learn how skill A works and how skill B works and how they work in such-in-such build. Then skill A gets changed, then you approximate how this affects the performance of build such-and-such and try to figure out if it can be built better.

*That's* what being a good player is about. It's just understanding how things work. Sure there may be a lot to study but that's the payoff: being able to configure something awesome no matter how many changes there are.

You keep saying "it'll just always end-up in the same spot". That's true, because it's how you do balance. Think about it: the last true balanced computer game was Starcraft. Given how many games have relied heavily on it you can see how much of a pain in the ass it is.

It's not easy, it's not always fun, but the effort towards it and becoming closer and closer to that peak is all worth it. If you just say "%@*# it" then your game is screwed, and this is a big reason why the high-end PvP community disappeared: ANet said "forget it".

Quote:

Originally Posted by HuntMaster Avatar

Sure, prophecies proved that. But when you talk to people about prophecies now they don't like to play those areas and always say how wonderful it was when factions and nightfall gave us new skills. But if you have to spend 3-8 hours in a game 3-5 days a week, then its going to far. Thats the problem with other MMO games. Yet some people seem to want that for gw, which alienates a larger group of players, labeled casual.

3-8 hours for what?

If players just want to dick around in the easiest setting they should be able to do that in all of the game's areas. If they want to be able to just run IDDQD and rofflestomp everything that should be allowed to. But ANet should also be saying "hay we know you're having fun but it's not the standard mkay?" Just like how Rock Band 2 locks you from getting achievements if you turn No Fail Mode on, or how Starcraft doesn't give you a score and instead yells "CHEATER!" at you if you used a code. Players need at least some reminder that there is a path to follow that will reward them.

And I'm 100% sure that people would still be playing "different things" if there was a build that included a skill that gave you invulnerability. Doesn't mean that it's okay, though. Even if nobody used that skill it still should not be within the game.

Quote:

Originally Posted by HuntMaster Avatar

He's got a good point in his post if it had not already been determined that people for the most part only have a problem with overpowered builds because they lost profit and now have to work harder to get what they want.

On a similar note, couldn't you just be posting about all this so you can preserve the simplicity of the farming of the lewtz?

Joking aside, some people actually do care about the game, believe it or not. Don't bring bias into this.

Quote:

Originally Posted by HuntMaster Avatar

Now here's a question for all of you. If a game is about skill over time and only 500,000 players are "good" at the game and the other 4,500,000 players can't get anywhere at all without help (godmode) then what happens?

You fix the learning curve.

If players are simply refusing to learn then they can just be happy in "the easy settings". That's what WoW's done for years and look at how successful it's been.

Not all players are going to be upset that they can't access the "leet" areas. There are players who acknowledge they're not good at the game and don't have a problem with it, because they know they can still have fun being a "newbie".

And some of those players? Well they're not happy about being a newb - so they get better, and then they can enjoy the non-newb content.

Quote:

Originally Posted by HuntMaster Avatar

Making a game harder does not make it better. Make a game better before you make it harder.

We're not asking to make it harder.

We're asking to make it less stupid, less retarded, more balanced, require more thought, planning, strategy, tactics. The byproduct should be harder, however, because that's what happens when you nerf something overpowered!

Sorry Guru for the horrendous wall of text. I will only be replying to PM's at this point if things are gonna be huge.

HuntMaster Avatar · Jul 09, 2009, 06:26 PM // 18:26

I get what you're saying and instead of quoting all that, I'll make it simple and short. I personally have no problem with the way the game is today aside from the drop system. I expect anet to nerf/buff and change everything that people find unfair, even when its not.

The games getting older but isn't old yet. They should be more focused on PvP and less on PvE balance. Stop wasting time balancing PvE when you can make things better in PvP and add new content to PvE.

When you balance PvE, it gives everyone a one week reset time period and after that the newest powerbuild will be on pvx and 10 videos or more will be on youtube detailing how to use it. You do no good.

Instead make PvP balanced and start supporting tournaments again. Add in more content to PvE like the zmissions and the traveler. Atleast I really liked those additions and it gives me something to do every day. We need one or two more daily things to do, another weekly event like the traveler and maybe a monthly event. Keep it consistant. Fix the predictions and balance the skills correctly. Fix the AI and do something about the drop system (H/H claim more drops than human players do) Add more missions/bosses to the zcycle.

Thats all, anything else would just be a repeat of what I'v said earlier.

Bryant Again · Jul 09, 2009, 07:03 PM // 19:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by HuntMaster Avatar

When you balance PvE, it gives everyone a one week reset time period and after that the newest powerbuild will be on pvx and 10 videos or more will be on youtube detailing how to use it. You do no good.

That's the same for many games concerning their PvP as well, but still they keep making more and more changes and yet players still keep playing them.

Some of the reasons for this are 1. the more frequently they change things the better they get at keeping more things in tune, and 2. it keeps the game fresh. It's like playing Magic except you don't have to keep paying for cards. You buy one deck and it Magic-ally ("boooo!") keeps rotating and changing for you.

What we have for PvE is just like WotC releasing one final set and it being superior to all the others and not making anything else.

Both sides of the game need to be livened up in order to be interesting. Granted going through new areas in the gameworld is always fun, but so is having new ways to explore and battle through those areas.

Of course, and I agree fully with this, providing new content is gonna be more of incentive to playing the game more since as we've already nailed it: most players don't care about balance.

Lopezus · Jul 09, 2009, 08:01 PM // 20:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

...

Personally, though i disagree with both your diagnosis and treatment about GW PvE i would opt game to change along to your proposal only for the sake of ending this repeating discussions, being 100 % certain that it won't bring any magical revival of Gw pve, the best thing that could happen (and very likely imo) we will be at the same situation as we are now.

ps. and i don't really find bring Starcraft into comparison viabale, game itself maybe perfectly balnced both in mulitplayer and singleplayer, still i dont know or heard of anyone playing single player campagins SC and SC:BW on daily basis for four years.

Bryant Again · Jul 09, 2009, 08:19 PM // 20:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lopezus

Personally, though i disagree with both your diagnosis and treatment about GW PvE i would opt game to change along to your proposal only for the sake of ending this repeating discussions, being 100 % certain that it won't bring any magical revival of Gw pve, the best thing that could happen (and very likely imo) we will be at the same situation as we are now.

It's just one step to making the PvE in this game actually decent and in-depth. It may be fun, but that doesn't showcase quality or how deep it is. I may have tons and tons of fun running people over in GTA but that really doesn't show much besides the fact that it's pretty damn funny.

I'm starting to see the "it alone won't change anything" argument popping up quite a bit lately, and it's true: just nerfing PvE skills won't do shit. It's the follow-up that is the entire picture.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lopezus

ps. and i don't really find bring Starcraft into comparison viabale, game itself maybe perfectly balnced both in mulitplayer and singleplayer, still i dont know or heard of anyone playing single player campagins SC and SC:BW on daily basis for four years.

It was more to show how hard it is to maintain and create balanced game. It was showcasing the point that it's been nearly 11 years since we've seen something even come close to SC in terms of balance.

AOD_EaSyKiLL · Jul 09, 2009, 10:10 PM // 22:10

Ways to improve Guild Wars PvE:

1. Un-Nerf Ursan and any other PvE skills

2. Un-Nerf or reinvent all rarely used regular and elite skills

3. Un-Nerf UW and other areas.

4. Un-Nerf SF and 55

5. Un-Nerf Minions and Soul Reaping

6. Buff Rangers/Pets for PvE (bring back IWAY and trapping at least)

7. Allow 7 heros (12 in Urgoz,etc)

8. Remove anti-farming code

9. Buff Warrior Tactics Skills and Stances

10. Improve A.I.

11. Add some Large scale public quests or dungeons that can't be done with heroes or henchies and take multiple players to complete.

TLDR Bring back all the fun stuff.

Chieftain Heavyhand · Jul 09, 2009, 11:37 PM // 23:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by AOD_EaSyKiLL

Ways to improve Guild Wars PvE:

1. Un-Nerf Ursan and any other PvE skills

2. Un-Nerf or reinvent all rarely used regular and elite skills

3. Un-Nerf UW and other areas.

4. Un-Nerf SF and 55

5. Un-Nerf Minions and Soul Reaping

6. Buff Rangers/Pets for PvE (bring back IWAY and trapping at least)

7. Allow 7 heros (12 in Urgoz,etc)

8. Remove anti-farming code

9. Buff Warrior Tactics Skills and Stances

10. Improve A.I.

11. Add some Large scale public quests or dungeons that can't be done with heroes or henchies and take multiple players to complete.

TLDR Bring back all the fun stuff.

/signed

Put down the nerf bat and step away from the keyboard. Bring back the PVE insane fun, If we like it we will use it, if not well.....

Bryant Again · Jul 10, 2009, 02:28 AM // 02:28

It sounds like people want the GW equivilent of playing an offline game and enter "god" into the console D:

fenix · Jul 10, 2009, 02:44 AM // 02:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

It sounds like people want the GW equivilent of playing an offline game and enter "god" into the console D:

Welcome to the Guild Wars PvE community.

UndeadRoadkill · Jul 10, 2009, 02:51 AM // 02:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by AOD_EaSyKiLL

Ways to improve Guild Wars PvE:

1. Un-Nerf Ursan and any other PvE skills

2. Un-Nerf or reinvent all rarely used regular and elite skills

3. Un-Nerf UW and other areas.

4. Un-Nerf SF and 55

5. Un-Nerf Minions and Soul Reaping

6. Buff Rangers/Pets for PvE (bring back IWAY and trapping at least)

7. Allow 7 heros (12 in Urgoz,etc)

8. Remove anti-farming code

9. Buff Warrior Tactics Skills and Stances

10. Improve A.I.

11. Add some Large scale public quests or dungeons that can't be done with heroes or henchies and take multiple players to complete.

TLDR Bring back all the fun stuff.

Yeah, and while they're at it, why don't they just get rid of the ban on bots? Then you won't even have to do all that pesky work of pushing buttons, and can focus on the "fun" of... wait, what exactly is fun about those things?

Still Number One · Jul 10, 2009, 03:31 AM // 03:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

It sounds like people want the GW equivilent of playing an offline game and enter "god" into the console D:

That my friend, is why I PvP. No one except the ignorant blood spammers are like that.